My view on the crazy world today
How can a soldier choose.
Published on October 15, 2004 By Dysmas In Politics
So the Presidential elections are three weeks away. Oh boy.


According to Army Times, the vast majority of military personnel, across the Services, are planning on voting for President Bush.


I can understand why, Bush has increased Military Pay rates, gave the Military the authority to offer more and better incentives for re-

enlistment and so on. However, the simple fact that President Bush forced our Army to go to war, with Rumsfelds insistance that

we need only a few combat troops to secure Iraq and that Iraqi Civil Servants would stay in place and keep the country from

collapse, with very limited forces. Granted the Divisons that initally conducted the war in Iraq did a good job, many senior military

commanders insisted that we would need many more troops to secure the country AFTER collapsing the regime.


Bush went to war without a properly planned SASO (Stability And Support Operation) plan. Without an adequate rotation plan for

most of the Army and military in general. And sent a Division, the 101st Airborne Divison, to the Area of Operations, on very short

notice and expected that the Division would be fully combat ready when the time came. The White House also assumed that Turkey

would allow the 4th ID acces to Iraq through thier country, therefor opening up a second front wich would bring the war to a more

rapid and efficent close. Turky refused. By sheer determination and not a little luck, the 101st became combat ready just in time for

the war in spite of all the logistical obsticals not in its favor.




So the war begain. The expected revolt of the sheites upon our invasion did not happen. Not suprisingly as they learned a hard

lesson by our quick withdrawal after Desert Storm, which left them stranded and eventually severly punished for their actions.


Also the surrender, en masse, of Iraqi forces did not occur. So when we destroyed Iraqi Divisions and Battalions many armed Iraqi

soldiers vanished into the country side, either laying low or waiting for their chance to get back at the Americans.



The US assumed that with the fall of Saddam's regime most of the Saddam loyalist paramilitary forces would be dishearted and

give up. The opposite happened and after the capture of Saddam they increased thier insergency.


With the lack of troop numbers on the ground to effectivly guard the borders, many terrorists and terrorists groups arrived in Iraq

and begain operations. Just like the senior military commanders said they would.


The list of policy shortcomings can go on and on, but now we are stuck and I pray for the best.


Like a joke I read, it says of Bush " Im the one who got us into this mess, Im the only one who can get us out."


Despite all of the negative things the administration has done in Iraq, the military does like the fact that we have a president who is

determined and unwavering in his commitment to the mission and support for the troops.



On the other hand you have Senator Kerry. Right off the bat he is a "No-Go" for many service members simply for his anti-war

activities after Nam. Understandably, who would want some one like that as your Commander-In-Chief?


Another thing to consider is that the major religion in the military is Christian and of that almost 25 percent of service members are

Roman Catholic. John Kerry proclaims to be a Catholic but is not in line with the teaching of the Church. Now a politacian who

flaunts his Faith must be prepared to back it up with actions and be willing to suffer the back lash of their convictions.


John Kerry does not. Against his Bishop's, and the Vatican's, orders, he went to Church and recieved the Euchorist. All this AFTER

he declared that he was Pro-Choice and other violations of Catholic teaching. If a person is Pro-Choice and they are a Catholic

there is no problem, but if a person is Pro-Choice and is running for an office which has a direct influence on the issue, it IS a

problem. He is running for President, he declared himself Pro-Choice and that he would uphold a "womans right to choose" then

he was automaticly Excommunicated from the Church. He then ignored the Church's declaration of his status and went right along

proclaiming he is a Catholic while at the same time disobeying the Faith in which he claims to adhere.


How can you trust a man who says one thing and does another, without any thought or respect.


His voteing record and past statements also show him to constantly change his "beliefs" to better mach those to whom he is

speaking to. Basicly he is a liar, BUT he has a much better Domestic Policy than the current adminastration.


Obviously a soldier's home and family are important and regardless of thier job overseas, their main focus is the "home front" and

they would be inclined to vote for one who would better serve both their familys and thier nations domestic needs better.



Bottom line is that a soldier is a defender of freedom, but more than that a soldier is one who attempts to portray the best of

American values. So when we must decide between these two, it is very diffacult as they both, in different areas, personify the

values of Americans, we are forced to choose which value is more important. In fact they are equally important. It is a shame if we

do not vote and it will be a shame when we do.


Comments (Page 2)
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on Oct 16, 2004
indeed I will
on Oct 16, 2004
Uhm if a Military person who votes for Bush is like a Chicken voting for 'Col. Sanders'.
Than there must be alot of people who like and trust 'Col. Sanders' in the Military.


The point stands, Grim, many policies enacted under Bush as well as the war in Iraq, in general, are detrimental to soldiers. Perhaps most of them are just too busy doing their job to spend the time researching the issues...

on Oct 16, 2004
As somebody not in the military, and I'm sure Deference will agree with me, I can honestly say that those who are in the military that'd prefer Bush to Kerry really must not know what it's like to be in the military... like me.
on Oct 16, 2004
Reply By: Messy Buu Posted: Saturday, October 16, 2004 As somebody not in the military, and I'm sure Deference will agree with me, I can honestly say that those who are in the military that'd prefer Bush to Kerry really must not know what it's like to be in the military... like me.


Im sorry but Im not exactly sure what you mean, chalk it up to stupidity on my part lol.
But if, (big if) your statement: I can honestly say that those who are in the military that'd prefer Bush to Kerry really must not know what it's like to be in the military is what I think it is then its a bit off. How can a service member not know what its like to be in the service. For example IM in the Army and I know exactly what its like. And I prefer Bush to Kerry, although I sorely wish there were different choices.
Again im sorry if I misinterprited your post but either way thanks for your line.
on Oct 16, 2004
Reply #17 By: Deference - 10/16/2004 12:29:05 AM
Uhm if a Military person who votes for Bush is like a Chicken voting for 'Col. Sanders'.
Than there must be alot of people who like and trust 'Col. Sanders' in the Military.

The point stands, Grim, many policies enacted under Bush as well as the war in Iraq, in general, are detrimental to soldiers. Perhaps most of them are just too busy doing their job to spend the time researching the issues...


They don't have to *research* the issues, they are living the issues!
on Oct 16, 2004
I was in the military, I'm not now (thank the F*ckin' Lord!) but if I was still in, I'm sure I'd be a bit peeved about stop loss, the unarmoured humvees, the civilians getting paid more than I for similar work, the deployment pay, etc. etc. .

In regards to your comment, Drmiler, just because I'm a citizen living in G.W.'s America does not make me an informed individual, I certainly don't know all the ins and outs of all Bush domestic policy or all the far reaching consequences...wouldn't you agree?

on Oct 16, 2004
"If a person is Pro-Choice and they are a Catholic there is no problem, but if a person is Pro-Choice and is running for an office which has a direct influence on the issue, it IS a problem."

While I respect your opinion, I cannot agree with you on this issue. An elected official, particularly the president, has a sworn DUTY to try and represent ALL of his/her constituents' interests and not just those who have certain religious values or beliefs. It is also the sworn DUTY of elected officials, and particularly the President, to UPHOLD the law of the land and the U.S. Constitution. It is not the duty of elected officials to impose their religous values upon the public at large via legislative or executive fiat, nor should it be. To do so changes this country's form of government from a democracy, where people have a right to CHOOSE beliefs, to an authoritative theocracy, where your beliefs and conduct are mandated to you via the President's own religious point of view, (that is exactly what happens in Arab countries where their laws are subserviant to their religion...and we all see how well THAT works). The Vatican does not and should not dictate, via the personal beliefs of the President or elected officials, what Americans should and should not believe or do. The law of the land says abortion is legal based on long standing precedent of Constitutional jurisprudence which says that people in this country have a right to privacy and the right to make their own choices regarding marriage and reproduction. While I agree a President should be reflective and rely on his/her religion for strength and wisdom...the President should NOT be imposing any particular religious values or beliefs on other people who have the right to either share those views, reject those views, or be indifferent to those views.
on Oct 16, 2004

So, Presidents aren't supposed to be pushing for anything of any kind, or only if it has nothing to do with religion, but maybe a belief based on something as subjective (i.e. the idea that the government should be doing more to help the poor)?

on Oct 16, 2004
Drmiler, "They don't have to *research* the issues, they are living the issues!"

Just because you are immediately experiencing something doesn't necessarily mean that you FULLY understand its impact or its consequence AT THAT MOMENT. For example, as citizens, we are ALL living under the Constitution. However, that does not mean we all understand ALL of it's consquences, intentions, it's meanings nor do we all fully experience ALL of it's effects at any given time. For example, if you have never committed crime and/or you have never been a direct victim of a crime...you may not necessarilly or FULLY understand ALL of the implications of the 4th Amendment even though we ALL experience the Constitution by virtue of our living under it.. Additionally, I don't think most people who HAVE committed crimes and/or have been direct victims of crimes and HAVE directly experienced the impact of the 4th Amendment FULLY understand it's impact while they are IMMEDIATELY experiencing it). A simpler example: A lot of Gulf War I veterans probably would have said that the vaccines they were required to recieve did not have an adverse affect on their health, AT THE TIME THEY WERE INJECTED (i.e. when they experienced it), but it has now been found via, a newly released study, that some of those vaccines were toxic and have a direct link with Veteran's developing Gulf War Syndrome.
on Oct 16, 2004
Messy Buu, "So, Presidents aren't supposed to be pushing for anything of any kind, or only if it has nothing to do with religion, but maybe a belief based on something as subjective (i.e. the idea that the government should be doing more to help the poor)?"

I'm not saying that Presidents should not be pushing ANY point of view. I'm saying that Presidents should not be pushing an agenda that is based primarily on any particular RELIGIOUS point of view. Nothing is truly "subjective" but we should be trying to do the best we can. Helping the poor is not based solely on religion...it is also based on our sense of civic duty to help those who are less fortunate. I agree there is often overlap...what I am saying is that certain issues are primarily rooted in religion and that is what we need to steer clear of.

on Oct 16, 2004




Reply By: T_Bone4Justice Posted: Saturday, October 16, 2004 "If a person is Pro-Choice and they are a Catholic there is no problem, but if a person is Pro-Choice and is running for an office which has a direct influence on the issue, it IS a problem." While I respect your opinion, I cannot agree with you on this issue. An elected official, particularly the president, has a sworn DUTY to try and represent ALL of his/her constituents' interests and not just those who have certain religious values or beliefs. It is also the sworn DUTY of elected officials, and particularly the President, to UPHOLD the law of the land and the U.S. Constitution. It is not the duty of elected officials to impose their religous values upon the public at large via legislative or executive fiat, nor should it be. To do so changes this country's form of government from a democracy, where people have a right to CHOOSE beliefs, to an authoritative theocracy, where your beliefs and conduct are mandated to you via the President's own religious point of view, (that is exactly what happens in Arab countries where their laws are subserviant to their religion...and we all see how well THAT works). The Vatican does not and should not dictate, via the personal beliefs of the President or elected officials, what Americans should and should not believe or do. The law of the land says abortion is legal based on long standing precedent of Constitutional jurisprudence which says that people in this country have a right to privacy and the right to make their own choices regarding marriage and reproduction. While I agree a President should be reflective and rely on his/her religion for strength and wisdom...the President should NOT be imposing any particular religious values or beliefs on other people who have the right to either share those views, reject those views, or be indifferent to those views. Bonus Rating: Trolling Insightful

T_Bone4justice:
I too respect your disenting opinion, hell we opinions are like as*hol$! we all have one
However, I posted Kerry's standing on that particualr issue was meant to demonstrate Kerry's seemingly lack of respect for VALUES he supposedly has. Im all for seperation of Church and State but I feel that if an elected official uses his religion, in anyway, as a part of his platform for running then they should be prepared, as I said, to back up thier beliefs.
Yes, true the president, or any elected offical, has the duty to represent the people AND uphold the law of the land, the president can have a disenting view on various aspects of the law. The abortion issue was established in Roe vs. Wade back in the 70s so while its been on the books for a while, I disagree with the "long standing" phrase you used. Its just a matter of words ya know?
Bear in mind that the concepts of Roe vs. Wade are in effect today, from the moment of its legalization it has been contested greatly, AND the Suprem Court passed that law WITH ONLY ONE VOTE more in its favor. Laws change, we as indivudals have different beliefs, but the law of the land is supposed to represent the majority of citizens views. Unfortunatly, by a VERY slim margin, more are in favor of Pro-Choice. ( obviously I am Pro-Life lol )
If one maintains that they are a Catholic, or an adherant of any other faith, as a matter of PRINCAPLE they should hold firm to their beliefs. So even if Kerry were to be Pro-Life personnaly, the only thing he could do as president would be to lobby for a change in the law, but BEFORE that change he must uphold the law as you said. So a presidents personnal beliefs to really interfere with thier duty shuld not be an issue.
I probably did the issue poor justice on my part so here is a statement by more competent author. I hope it helps illustrate my point.

John Kerry's Catholic problemCal Thomas (archive)April 26, 2004 | Print | SendJohn Kerry made a familiar statement about abortion last week. Bill Clinton said it before him. Many Democrats who wish to remain in the good graces as well as the political clutches of the abortion-rights lobby say it. Kerry said he wants to keep abortion "safe, legal and rare."I understand "safe" (though it's never safe for the baby and often not the woman). I understand "legal" (though contemporary jurisprudence is shifting sand). I don't understand "rare." Unless the pre-born child is human and worthy of the law's protection, why care if abortion is rare or common? Is Kerry attempting to satisfy the tug of conscience deep within this professed Roman Catholic that the teachings of his church are true and that he needs a kind of moral cover - genuflecting in the direction of truth but making no effort to slow or stop abortions should he gain the power to do so?The Vatican said last week that priests must deny Communion to Catholic politicians who support abortion rights. The Kerry campaign would not respond directly, but a spokesman, appropriately named David Wade (remember Roe vs. Wade?), reiterated Kerry's position on church-state separation that, he said "had helped make religious affiliation a non-issue in American politics."Is the state the issue, or the church? If a Catholic politician, or one of any other faith, sees an injustice and acquires the power to right it, should he then be excused for behaving like Judas and selling his soul for political coinage? Doesn't such a "faith" lead one to conclude that person might be agnostic, and religion, for him, is merely a tool for hoodwinking the unsophisticated?Put it another way: Suppose a hospital board decides the hospital should perform abortions. The pro-life administrator and several nurses protest to no avail. Doesn't their belief in the sanctity of life take precedence over their jobs? Would not God, or conscience, require them to resign instead of denying God or conscience and participating in an act they regard as immoral for the sake of a paycheck?When Kerry and other Catholic politicians say they accept church teaching but selectively deny it when it comes to abortion, they place the state above the church and man above God. They mortgage their consciences to convenience and principle to pragmatism. Should such a person lead this nation?In his memoir, "Inside: A Public and Private Life," Joseph A. Califano Jr. - a Catholic Democrat who worked in the Kennedy and Johnson administrations - expounds on his struggle with the abortion issue. After being nominated as Johnson's secretary of health, education and welfare, Califano, who opposed federal funding for abortion unless the woman's life was jeopardized, consulted his pastor, a Jesuit priest named James English. Califano writes, "I first confronted the tension between my religious beliefs and public policy on the searing issue of whether Medicaid should fund abortions." He says his priest told him while most of our laws are founded on moral values, "my obligation to my personal conscience was satisfied if I expressed those views forcefully. If another view prevailed, however, I was free, indeed obliged, to enforce the law. 'In a democratic society, you are free to struggle to change the law even as you enforce the one on the books,' he said." (Califano was interviewed on my TV show, where he talked about this and other issues.)The problem for Kerry is that he won't even go that far. He is pro-abortion, for any reason and at any time. He has not said how he would work to make abortion "rare," except that like others who hold this position he would probably advocate more birth control, which would also place him in opposition to the teachings of his church.Like the pro-life hospital administrator and nurses, Kerry has a choice: either "resign" as a Catholic, or withdraw from the presidential race. To be president and not even attempt to make abortion "rare" by changing the law that has permitted so many, even for convenience, ignores the power of the presidency and trivializes his faith. In the one case, it leaves an individual open to a charge of hypocrisy. In the other, it puts him in jeopardy of being labeled a heretic.©2004 Tribune Media Services

on Oct 16, 2004

I'm not saying that Presidents should not be pushing ANY point of view. I'm saying that Presidents should not be pushing an agenda that is based primarily on any particular RELIGIOUS point of view. Nothing is truly "subjective" but we should be trying to do the best we can. Helping the poor is not based solely on religion...it is also based on our sense of civic duty to help those who are less fortunate. I agree there is often overlap...what I am saying is that certain issues are primarily rooted in religion and that is what we need to steer clear of.


Helping the poor is still a moral issue, and I don't see how a non-religious moral is any better to enforce than a religious moral (and aren't there non-Christian pro-Lifers?).

on Oct 16, 2004

Reply #21 By: Deference - 10/16/2004 2:01:56 AM
I was in the military, I'm not now (thank the F*ckin' Lord!) but if I was still in, I'm sure I'd be a bit peeved about stop loss, the unarmoured humvees, the civilians getting paid more than I for similar work, the deployment pay, etc. etc. .

In regards to your comment, Drmiler, just because I'm a citizen living in G.W.'s America does not make me an informed individual, I certainly don't know all the ins and outs of all Bush domestic policy or all the far reaching consequences...wouldn't you agree?


I'm not saying that you do or don't. That wasn't my comment. BTW I was in also for 6 years. and if they'd let me I'd go back in a hot second!
on Oct 16, 2004
I have to say that I love the various points of view presented here. We all have our opinions, some may or may not be valid than others but the point remains the same. So to the point that some opinions might not be "valid" is simply subjective as, in reality, all are, especially to the person stateing it. I think its great that we can have a thread with polite, disenting points of view so as to better understand a version of "the whole picture". But at the end of the day we cannot honestly say that we are completly correct, or completly incorrect.
Thank you all for your time AND your views. I plan on, with your permission to iclude portions or the thread in its entirety in a book I plan on publishing in the future, of course entitled " A soldiers point of view" ( unless, with my luck that title is already taken lol) So if you would, give or not give your permission for me to publish your opinions. Thank you.
Dysmas
on Oct 16, 2004
GX, why don't you drop the libertarian act and just admit you're a republican?
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