thanks for explaining the abbreviations and numbering system. 

as far as the mosaic law you cited (from exodus) goes, my interpretation is based on my very casual understanding of a combination of other ancient law systems with cultural customs and concerns common to many (even present day) tribal/agricultural societies which are embodied  in our own civil codes (oj was sued by nicole's family for damages/loss for which they felt him responsible and the court agreed; families of the victims of 911 or the lockerbie disaster receive compensation based on loss of potential earnings).

It seems I have quite a few issues to address here lol but what the hell, im feeling ok. First of all I would like to thank you for being respectful AND for asking very good questions. It is always nice for me to research issues, especially very important ones, so It can help me understand the why, of my belief. Ok.
First it seems that I skipped over one of your inital rebuttals, I will address it here.

im not so sure you wanna go there. that would provide (as would the ordained prior to birth thing) a great argument for determinism wouldnt it? it's not germane in any event because clearly theres no way to demonstrate scientifically that someone is endowed with a special purpose (well no one but steve martin in the jerk anyway) at conception.

Well the reason I do want to go there, lol, is simply because as a Catholic that is what we are required to believe, and as such, it is an alternativel, as you said, to scientific reasoning. Faith is a gift and with that gift comes comes the understanding that, if you believe what the Church teaches about Doctrional issues, which is also required, you must comply with, not nessacarily like it.
it's not germane in any event because clearly theres no way to demonstrate scientifically that someone is endowed with a special purpose (well no one but steve martin in the jerk anyway) at conception.
On Doctrinoal issues there is no need for scientific proof. Such as Jesus's ressurection, His healings and miracles. If you adhere to Christianity you just believe it is possable, evedince, by word of mouth of course, for miracles is provided in the Old Testement books. Christians simply take the early Church's word that it happened. It may sound nieave to most non-believers but thats ok, it DOES sound nieave (sp?) But as Jesus said to St. Thomas. " You believe because you have seen, blessed are those who belive and have not seen." We have not seen and still belive.
someone is endowed with a special purpose (well no one but steve martin in the jerk anyway) at conception.
Well in two distince cases we do believe that to be the case. One- jesus's conception had endowed him with a special purpose and Mary's singular grace endowed her with a special purpose, no one else.
However it is true that Mary and even Jesus could have said "no" and that would be that, they did not. Focusing on Mary, as obviously not God come down as man, she had even a greater chance of saying "no". If she had, she still would have been endowed with a special purpose ( carry Jesus in her womb) she just would have chosen not to utilize that special purpose, and that was well within her rights vis a vie free will.

thanks for explaining the abbreviations and numbering system. as far as the mosaic law you cited (from exodus) goes, my interpretation is based on my very casual understanding of a combination of other ancient law systems with cultural customs and concerns common to many (even present day) tribal/agricultural societies which are embodied in our own civil codes (oj was sued by nicole's family for damages/loss for which they felt him responsible and the court agreed; families of the victims of 911 or the lockerbie disaster receive compensation based on loss of potential earnings).

Well although your interpretation is based on casual understanding on ancient law systems, mine simply was based on my version of "common sense" im no expert on ancient law systems and dont even have much of a casual understanding of it. ( a little but not much at all.)
And I agree with the inital Scripture passage that it indicates, very clearly, that at first it would be financial compensation. But I believe the second part delved into the "meat and potatoes" issue of abortion.
As I said, the Church and its Doctrines have evolved and advanced, albeit slowly, through the ages. And because the early Church didnt belive in, or know, some issues it dosent mean they, the current ones, are wrong.
I provided some examples of early issues. The Church is constantly re-evaluating its stance on moral issues, and even Doctrinal issues. Man-made Church laws can, and have been changed, Doctrinal issue can only be updated, and not contrary to what it was. If, of course you believe what the Church stands for and has authority to do.

Obviously many people do not agree with the Catholic Church or even Christianity in general, and thats thier right make no mistake, but without that belief it is hard to understand and/or accept what we belive, or what the Church teaches.

Im no scholar, and only an Apologist in training. I simply provide offical proof of the issues and often times my own personal opinion. My reason for this is not, at all, to convert anyone, simply to explain the Church's stance. ( I know ive said it before lol)
I dont ask people to agree with me, I am just giving my point of view and relish the chance to discuss it. kingbee is very articulate and forces me to think and re-think my beliefs. Good.

Jessica:
Well hello to you!! lol. I love you too, your sister, mom, of course Colin ( my brother to everyone out there.)
To address your concerns. I do accept your choice in what to belive in. People can choose whatever they want and thats their right. They can belive in this or that, or in many cases, nothing.
I do have a probelm in you choice of "religion" but I will never, not ever "turn away" from you. That would be completly un-Christian and also very rude. Im glad you feel as happy as you do, I could never want for you to not be happy. But my opinion of the reason you feel happy is not good but it dosent change a thing.
You are great and I love and respect your decision even though i disagree with it.
Neither I nor Colin will turn away from you. Always will you have our support, in good times and bad.

Eric, thank you. I don't know what to say. I was so scared to tell you. It really made me cry to read your post back to me. I have spent years trying to be something I'm not, trying to be perfect, and it helps to know that you still love me(although you're under no obligation like mom and Colin) although I'm not. Thank you.
I hope your doing okay, and I pray for you everyday. No matter the differences in what we believe, I know that both our prayers are going to the same entity regardless of who we think it is. Come home soon, okay? We all miss you so much. Happy Veteran's Day, even though its not till Thursday. Tell Matthew, Patrick, and Jen we send our love. Are the rumors of a bun in the oven true? If so, congratulations. Keep me updated. Love you always! Jessica

lol, yes the rumors are true. Hopeing its gonna be a girl for once!

It seems the abortion issue initaited by kingbee is just about wrapping up. We could, of course go on and on about who said this or that, but the question primarily was about scientific evidence, which I partly responded to and also the faith part of it which is just as essential, if not more.
I will continue to address this issue as the need arises but, in the absence of new questions I will simply post the questions and answers to common issues.
thanks for your time

We could, of course go on and on about who said this or that, but the question primarily was about scientific evidence, which I partly responded to and also the faith part of it which is just as essential, if not more.

thanks so much for putting so much time, effort and thought into this discussion.  it was enlightening to me and your willingness to share your knowledge as youre doing here deserves an insightful rating in my humble opinion.

well kingbee I do honestly appreciate your question as it raised some of my own. It was a pleasure having this discusion with you and I am willing to try and address any others you may have.
As for my time and effort, well it wouldn't make much sense to declare that I would do my best to answer a question and then not do my best ya know
thank you for the compliment.

Now on to the topic of Catholic customs and Traditions.

Information provided by "Cathoic customs and traditions" by Greg Dues.

First of all they are Subject to change.
Because religious traditions are a human dimension of faith, they are subject to change.
Sometimes the change is subtle and sometimes dramatic and they tend to happen during a broad uphheaval in society.
In the 1960s there was a profound change in the way Catholics lived their faith. (due to the 2nd Vatican Council) and the changes are still takeing place.

In the 4th and 5th centuries Christianity became allied with and even synonymous with the Roman Empire.
During the "dark ages" (565-1095) the people entered the age of Feudalism with its small principalities and higly structured rankings among nobles, princes kings etc. These upheavals continued with the founding of nations and the Protestant Reformation, and continued advancment of humankind continuing to this day.

Changes in society always effects the traditions of Christians. The Church adopted structures (such as dioceses) and court ettiquete ( for example, genuflecting) from the civil Roman Empire.
It also adapted to the religous practices of the "barbarian" tribes which swept through europe when these people became Christians.

The Church became Monastic during the "dark ages", feudalistic with clearly defined roles for clergy and laity during the time of Feudalisim.
The Church then, and now, functions much like a monarchy with higly centralized authority and today is struggling with aspects of Democracy.

Because of the upcoming Thanksgiving I will speak about it here:
Thanksgiving recievs the prize for being the most earthy of celebrations in our contempory culture today.
Thanksgiving( the idea and function) have been a basic theme in most religions throughout history regardless of race and ethnic origin. All peoples have enjoyed the harvest festivals, celebrating the end of the growing season and the fruit of thier hard work with feasting. Paradoxily, the Pilgrims, who were responsable for the present tradition of Thanksgiving were opposed to public celebrations of festivals.
Jewish traditions included both private and public celebrations and sacrifices of thanksgiving. Some are discribed in detail in Scripture. The fifty days of Passover for example. and in the fall the celebration of "sukkot, or feast of booths.
The same for Christianity, celebrating the bread-and-cup ritual of Jesus ressurrection and continuing presence.
The aztecs of mexico celebrated the corn harvest by beheading a young girl ( barbaric I know but its historical) who represented Xilonen, the goddes of new corn.
The Pawnee native americans also may have sacrificed a girl. The Cherokees danced the Green Corn Dance, and began the new year at the end of the harvest and so on.

Tradition is important as it has its roots deep in our minds. It is a public issue that helps bring people toghter in a concrete, mutual way. We all enjoy celebrating weddings, birthdays, annaversirys, and any other holiday. It brings about a sense of community and sharing. That is one reason why regular traditon is dynamic, some times in order to bring about a better sense of community and sharing we must re-evaluate what we feel is important to celebrate toghter.
My opinion.

test

Excuse me for my absence, for some reason I was unable to post or reply for a week or so.
To continue;

Christmas Candles

Light, especially in its natural form, a flame, has always been an intergral part of pretty much every religion the world has seen.
There is something mystical and special about a flame. The Christmas candle is an ancient tradition symbolizing the light of Christ in His defeat of darkness. The light signifies the illumination of ignorance and pushing away the shadow of sin. It is a representive of Christ, a memorial of his birth ( no He was probably was not born on Dec 25 but that is the day we celebrate His birthday.)
A candle serves as a glowing reminder of what we belive in and it is very fragile to keep lit in the turblence of the times, indeed of all times. But if we manage to keep the light going and if should go out we are able to re light it, we are illuminating our faults, the Lord's truth, and it will help us to "shed light" on how to go about resoliving any particualr issue me may have.

Can you find out why the Catholic Church always has in its churches the cross with the image of the suffering Christ on it? Many Protestants find this offensive for some reason. I think it would be more appropriate to have an image of the Risen Christ as the predominate figure as you enter the church. The Catholic Church generally has a reason for all of these things. I would like to know what it is so that I may answer the question posed by some of my Protestant friends. I don't think such matters should ever be a subject that causes more division and disunity. It is really not that important, at least, to me.

I don't think such matters should ever be a subject that causes more division and disunity.

I agree with you, Christ demanded ONE Church ONE people, now I would argue that ALL Christians are a part of Christ's Church but as it is said " a house divided must fall"

As for the Image of Christ suffering upone the Cross. The Image is used by the Catholic Church as a reminder of the suffering Christ endured on our behalf and that we, as Christians should expect to suffer for His sake as well. As Christ said " you are no greater than the Master" He made many statements on that issue. "Take up your cross and follow me" is a theme well known.
The Cruxific is a sad symbol of what humanity did to Our Lord BUT it is also a happy symbol for what the Lord went through for us and that at the end or horrable suffering there is joy, there is light in Christ Jesus.
The image of a Risen Christ is good too as well as a plain Cross, no problem. The RCC chooses not to use those other symbols of Christianity simply because the Cruxific is the oldest and most approprate symbol of our Redemption by Christ.

I think the image of Christ Risen is great, it is a symbol of hope, but Im afraid that it may, to some, incline people to forget that Christ had to suffer in order to rise, as we must suffer in order to rise with Him in the end.

On a side topic, it is useful to remember that in dealing with Protestants that you do not intentionally judge them nor give the apperance of judging them you know? We must love our Christian brothers and sisters of ALL Denominations, as we most love all people.
As Christ said, "if they are not agaisnt us they are for us."
All we can hope for is unity in the global Christian Church and in the end, I feel and know, we all answer to Jesus and if someone, and for the sake of this post, a Protestant, is at ease with meeting the Lord and confident that He will be pleased then thats good. Again, in the end the Lord will judge us as He sees fit.

For that reason I have studied many, and all of the major American Denominations, Christian groups, so that I may learn how and why they think the way they do. I then cross-referenced it with Catholic Teaching so I can better explain the RCC's position on issues and just as importantly, I can understand where they are coming from. The same goes for Atheists and even "anti-Catholics"
Many have real and valid points that were never sufficintly explained or, God forbid, had bad experiences with the RCC.
Christains, Catholics included, tend to be judgemntal when defending their faith to others and that is a "turn off" for people, who may be a bit abrasive in what they say, but really want to understand. Not nessecarily believe, but at least understand.

At the end of the day all one can hope for is that they have explained thier beliefs as calmly and as well as they could. And if they dont want to believe thats ok too. "Shake the dust from your feet" and move on. It our duty to proclaim the Gospel, its NOT our duty to force people to believe.

Thanks for your question

I hope this answer helps in some way.

Common Catholic Prayers

Although Jesus is God, He is God made man. Because He is God made man, a human completly like ourselfs, He prayed and taught us how to pray, to God the Father. I will do my best to break down this prayer in a simple fashion and will address any comments or questions.

Lord's Prayer

Our Father who art in heaven hallowed be thy name, thy kingdom come thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us. Led us not into temptation but deliver us from evil, amen.

Our Father who art in heaven Jesus re-afferms that the Father is indeed in heaven and that we all should address him as such. He also reminds us that God is the father of us all and not just of Jesus Himself, by calling him "Our Father" and not "My Father" Also Jesus puts to rest the question of; Does God prefer the qualites and aspects of a man or a woman?. The truth is that God is a spiritual being and so has NO gender. In fact there are many passages in the Bible that give feminine aspects to God. However, since Jesus calls him "Our Father" He is saying that for all intents and purposes that God acts more in the manner of a "father" than that of a "mother".
He made Adam, a man and chose to lower Himself to the human state as Jesus, also a man and considered by theologians "the new Adam."

hallowed be thy name And that we should revere God.

thy kingdom come thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Jesus asks and prays that His Father's kingdom will finally come to earth and that His will, will be done here as it is done in heaven. To make earth a pure, loving, and peacful place.

Give us this day our daily bread Here Jesus shows us that God can and will provide for our temporal needs so we should not think that God is worried only about our eternal souls, (although it IS His main priority.)

and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us
Many people view the above passage to mean that God will forgive us IF we forgive others and that is absolutly true, however there is also a potentially more important meaning to that phrase. That God will forgive us AS, litteraly, we forgive others meaning that God will forgive us in the same measure that we forgive others. Personally I feel that the phrase means both. That he will forgive us if we forgive in return but that we should be sure to completly and honestly forgive others.

Led us not into temptation but deliver us from evil, amen.
The phrase "led us not into temptation" implies that He would and that we are asking Him not to. I feel that it is more of a humble request combined with "but deliver us from evil". We ask God to protect us from temptation and that if we succumb to it to deliver us from it's chains. And of course "amen" simply means "So be it."

Well that is my quick assesment of what the prayer might mean and what it basicly means to me.
Thank you.

Catholics do not need embryology to convince them of life at conception since they believe it is the marriage of spirit and matter.

Would you explain your comment please? For myself and others. Thank you for your response.